Episode 6: What If We Get It Wrong?

In this conversation, Jo Hobbis and Christie Penner Worden explore the complexities of parenting, particularly in discussions about identity and the fear of getting it wrong. They share personal anecdotes, including a memorable experience of getting lost during a hike, to illustrate the importance of allowing children to lead conversations and the value of flexibility in parenting. The discussion emphasizes the significance of humility, the role of other adults in children's lives, and the necessity of building a circle of trust. They also highlight the concept of do-overs, the importance of curiosity, and the journey of self-discovery as parents and children navigate their identities together. This is a deep dive into The Me I Was Made To Be: Helping Christian Parents Navigate The Identity Conversation by Christie Penner Worden.

Transcript

Jo Hobbis (00:01)
Well, hey, Christie, here we are again. Ready for our final episode. And yeah, that's sad, isn't it? We should have a little hooray and boo cards to hold up, But the thing I really want to address today, because I feel like it's the thing that hangs over the whole conversation for parents, is quite a big question. What if we get it wrong?

Christie Penner Worden (00:04)
Yay!

BOO!

That's right.

Jo Hobbis (00:28)
So last time we talked about the long walk, guideposts and guardrails and letting kids lead. So let's start by talking about how you found yourselves lost at Morebattle. I love how you describe it in the book. But what did it teach you about getting it wrong?

Christie Penner Worden (00:46)
So getting lost at Morebattle can directly and specifically be blamed on the children.

Jo Hobbis (00:53)
I love that you shift the blame instantly.

Christie Penner Worden (00:59)
I say that because my experience of getting lost was very frustrating. I also say that because I'm probably the only one that actually felt lost that day. So we had  arrived at the top of a hill. It was the day with the greatest incline, the greatest shift in elevation in our walk.  And we got to the top of the tallest hill.

And across the way we could see another hill, which of course looked taller and the kids were given,  pardon me, let me back up. Danielle gave the kids the choice. That's really where the blame was.

Jo Hobbis (01:40)
You're shifting the blame again,

Christie!

Christie Penner Worden (01:45)
 The two 12 year olds were given the choice because they were so curious about that other hill. Well, do you want to go that way? And what we talked through was what are the consequences of going that way? We do have to end up at the place where we have paid to lie our heads at the end of the day and get a meal at the end of the day. But do you want to climb that one too? And everything within me

wanted to say, what are you doing? That's not the path. We're supposed to stay on St. Cuthbert's Way. That's the whole point. We're supposed to follow the way markers, follow the fence posts, go the way of the footpath. This is like, it's been done for hundreds of years. There's no reason to change the script. It's written for us. Let's go. And I'm trying very hard not to say anything at all because I have very strong feelings about leaving the path and getting it right. And I think that was the first thing I learned.

in those very brief, like quick moments where you're shuffling through all the things you want to scream and choosing to bite your tongue was, does it mean we're getting it wrong just because we go a different way? And I think in giving our kids a chance to lead in the conversation and giving them a chance to maybe understand more than we do, we need to evaluate, are we afraid we're going to get it wrong?

Jo Hobbis (02:51)
Mm-hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (03:08)
if we let them lead? Or can we still get to where we want to go in the conversation, even if it doesn't begin where we would prefer? I think there's...

Jo Hobbis (03:19)
kind of suggests

That kind of suggests an endpoint when you say, is it going to get us to where we want to go? Should there be an endpoint?

Christie Penner Worden (03:28)
Well, I think often when parents set off on a conversation about identity, they are hoping to get to a theological endpoint where there's agreement. I think they're hoping to get to a point where we're all on the same page and that other people might think this and other people might think that, and that might be true, or other friends or other parents or other, and that's not what we believe. If there is a black and white answer that parents are trying to land at,

Jo Hobbis (03:38)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (03:56)
then yes, there is an endpoint. The problem is our kids are kids. Our kids are kids there, that was clearer. Our kids are in development. Their prefrontal cortex has years to still develop, until 25 in fact. And the idea that they can change their mind about many things, which they do, I mean, how many times do we rightly or wrongly ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? And at one point it was a gorilla and now it's a plumber. And next week it might be an architect.

It's not just the ability to change their mind, it's their right. That's what growing up is all about, is figuring out more and more accurately or more and more whimsically or more and more creatively who we were made to be. And if there isn't the flexibility to let them change their mind about what they want to do for a career, then there also won't be the flexibility about who they might

turn out to be or who they might say they are as they grow and change. And who they are pre-sexually is going to be different than when that great, delightful, exciting time of life called puberty hits and the questions shift. And the ideas about who they are or what interests them or why certain things are meant for boys versus meant for girls. Why do people say that? Why do they think that? Why do we care?

Why do grownups see it this way? Their questions, letting them lead, might not even be because they are confused about their identity. They might just not particularly enjoy the way we're getting through that conversation, or they might not agree with what we've decided is normative. And so letting them lead allows them to ask questions that we might not know they have. And it might lead to a different conversation. And in fact, what happened at Morebattle is that we ended up

among fish traps and barbed wire, and it was entirely precarious to get out of the situation that I certainly didn't agree to. Now that's a lie. That statement right here.

Jo Hobbis (06:05)
You sound like you're still

cross about it.

Christie Penner Worden (06:11)
No! I'm fine. I've recovered. I'm fine. No, I think when we shift the weight, I keep doing it for a reason, but at some point I agreed to bite my tongue and it was early on and I agreed to go with the crowd.

That didn't make the way we went wrong. It just made it not St. Cuthbert's way. And that took a while for me to process that just because we've gone a different way doesn't mean we won't end up at the right bed and breakfast where we're supposed to eat our dinner and fall asleep that night. Just because we went a different way didn't mean we were intentionally going to end up in the wrong place at the end. Did we end up in a different place? Yes, we did.

We were a long, long way. By the time we ended up in a place where there was a road with a sign pointing in the direction of the town that we were supposed to end up in, it was almost dark. And we were far from where we should have been if we had stayed on the path. And for those listening, I'm using air quotes around the word should, because in the introduction to the book, I'm very clear about

Jo Hobbis (07:24)
He

Christie Penner Worden (07:28)
I don't like the word should, and you should know that about me. So I was in a place of shoulds at that point. getting it wrong, getting St. Cuthbert's Way wrong meant that we opened up this path for the kids to not only make decisions, but trusting that there would be a way to our bed and breakfast no matter where we ended up.

Jo Hobbis (07:55)
Hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (07:56)
Most important to that day's particular journey is what happened when we all ended up climbing over a fence and nearly snagging our pants on, well, I do mean, I do mean, I caught myself, was like, uh-oh, for the North American listeners, mean pants, for the UK listeners, mean, I definitely mean trousers. We were all wearing trousers that day.

Jo Hobbis (08:09)
⁓ she means trousers, British listeners. Just...

That's good.

Christie Penner Worden (08:25)
but

the chance of snagging our trousers, whatever's on our legs, on barbed wire, having to grab a big branch on a tree to swing our bodies over the fence to get to the other side, and I was the smallest of all the humans on the trek. It wasn't until we were on the other side of that  fence, looking at a roadway, looking at a highway that told us we were five miles still from our destination that I really

Christie Penner Worden (08:54)
understood that Danielle knew what she was doing all along and the idea of arriving at a point and it's not the point we need to be at yet was when she turned to the kids and said, now, what do we know about this moment? What do we know? What do we know about being here? And what we know that we still have five miles to go. We know that this isn't St. Cuthbert's way. We know that we aren't where we thought we would be. We know that

heading in the direction of traffic meant that we would find civilization, but it didn't necessarily mean we were gonna find where we needed to be right away. It didn't land us in the driveway of the bed and breakfast or of the restaurant where we were to have dinner. It just landed us closer to civilization. And so we're trying to answer Danielle's question of how did we end up in this place or what do we know for sure? And then she wrapped it up by saying, we also know

that Ang went ahead of us today in the sunshine van. And we can call her to come and get us. We do not need to walk the five miles. And five miles, five kilometers for the Canadians listening is very different than five miles. There is a very big difference in length and it was already dusk, it was getting dark. And so then we were measuring risk. Do we walk?

Jo Hobbis (10:00)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (10:20)
the extra five miles. And in my mind, because we had gone the wrong way, to my mind, this was wrong. What we had done was wrong because it wasn't St. Cuthbert's way. It wasn't the plan. And we intentionally deviated from the plan. I felt, and I truly mean this, that we deserved to have to walk the five miles.

Jo Hobbis (10:42)
No!

Christie Penner Worden (10:43)
And I don't know

if you've ever been in that position where you know you got it wrong. And so I deserve what comes to me. I deserve the consequences of what comes to me. That was not the posture Danielle took. She looked at them and said, what should we do? And her answer was, when you get it wrong or you end up somewhere where you shouldn't be or can't find a way out of, or you're too far from home and can't make it to where you need to be.

Always know who you can call.

Jo Hobbis (11:14)
Mm. Yeah, I love that.

Christie Penner Worden (11:15)
She pulled out

her cell phone in that moment and she called Ang and said, we don't know where we are, but I'm going to describe where we are. And there's only so many, so many narrow roadways, one way laneways into the bed and breakfast. So I'm going to describe where we are and perhaps you've driven past it today. Maybe you can find us. If we get enough signal, we can drop a pin and you can come and find us.

Jo Hobbis (11:38)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (11:46)
And at that point, I had already said, well, I'm just gonna start walking. And so if I see Ang somewhere, I will wave her down, she'll pick me up and then we'll come and get you.

Danielle gets off the phone, Ang is on her way. Danielle runs towards me and says, it really doesn't make any sense for you to go it alone. Could you come back with the group? Cause at least we know where everybody is. If we wait as a group, it was such a metaphor for how conversations can end up somewhere other than we thought it would end up. And it's not necessarily wrong. It's just a different outcome.

Jo Hobbis (12:20)
Yeah.

Mm.

So in what ways then do you think we might have got this conversation wrong before? And is there a way back from that?

Christie Penner Worden (12:33)
Hmm.

Well, lucky for us, we serve a God of do-overs. And we see that, I mean, we see that time and again with people in scripture that they get a do-over. mean, Jonah's do-over was particularly stinky. I'm not sure I would like his version of a do-over in the belly of a fish, but we still do serve a God of do-overs. How many chances does God give to Israel while they wander in the desert?

Jo Hobbis (12:41)
You

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (13:04)
How many times does he redeem his children back to himself? How many times do the disciples need to misunderstand the marvel and miracle of the person of Jesus before he has to say, do you still not understand who I am? Do you still not have enough faith? We serve a God of do-overs. first just know that and know that when you think you've got it wrong, even as the grownup,

even as the one who kids are looking to, who might think you'd have the answer. Know who you can call. That's not just something we can tell our kids to teach them to know who they can turn to when they think they get it wrong. But you as a parent, as an adult, as a mentor, as someone who's walking with kids in your life, know that you can also call somebody when you get it wrong. Who is your circle of trust?

who's in your circle of trust that you can call and say, I think I got this wrong and I need a do-over with my kid. Or I think I might've said too much. Or I think they were trying to tell me something and I didn't listen well. I just gave them my opinion.

Jo Hobbis (14:18)
And I think it's about having the humility to go back to our kids as well, isn't it? And say, I got it wrong. Can we start again? Can we have that conversation again? Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (14:23)
Yes.

Yes. Yes. Will you forgive me?

I saw your face fall. I saw what happened on your face, in your heart, when I flippantly said this or that, or I answered a question with a period instead of asking a question with a question mark. When I told you this or that, or I said, this is what the Bible says.

Jo Hobbis (14:33)
Hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (14:55)
Did I leave you no room to ask more questions? Did I leave you feeling like I'm not a safe person to have this conversation with? Because the more we can allow kids to feel safe with questions, the more they feel safe with you and we will go further together. I think when we have too many answers, meaning an end goal to the conversation, when we have too, when we've decided where we want the conversation to end up,

we can appear unsafe as a partner in the conversation. Because that first time we say, well, this is what I think and this is what scripture says. And so, I mean, really those people can do that, but we don't believe that. And so when there's an us and them conversation, when it's an us versus them conversation, we have not yet learned whether our child identifies with us or them, or if they're in agreement with us or them.

Jo Hobbis (15:51)
Mmm.

Christie Penner Worden (15:54)
And so we run the risk of alienating our child from feeling safe to going further. And that trek off the path, up Morebattle, around the other side, and five miles back from where we were supposed to be, there was no way the right thing to do was, well, you guys can go that way, but we're going to go the right way. Good luck. We'll see if you end up at the right place for supper tonight.

Jo Hobbis (16:19)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (16:20)
And so choosing to go the long way or the hard way or just a different way than we had imagined, the cost is humility on our part. The cost otherwise is asking our child to navigate it without us. So what do we have to lay down? What do we have to put down in order to go with our kids? And I think we really need to

contemplate that before we have the conversation, before we end up in a place where we need the do-over of what if our child says this? And it comes back to a question we asked in an earlier episode, what are you afraid of? What are you afraid your child might table? What are you afraid they might say about who they are? What have you been watching, observing, listening to?

as your child is growing that has made you feel uncomfortable. And so you just would rather steer. Let me gently guide you a different way. And really sometimes what we mean when we say a different way is in our minds, it's the right way. It's the correct way that we see our kids going the wrong way. And we want to steer them. Now, sometimes it's true. Sometimes we see our kids

Jo Hobbis (17:36)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (17:44)
heading for danger. And like I've said before, no one would willingly let their child set their hand on the burner of a stove. That's not the right way to learn either. But when it comes to conversations of identity, we have to get more curious about what conversation our children want to have and need to have and earn the right to have it with them. And if you're not going to have it with them, like we've said before,

Jo Hobbis (18:09)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (18:12)
who will you entrust the conversation to so that you might end up, yeah.

Jo Hobbis (18:15)
Yeah, that's where I was gonna

go next, because always know who you can call. I feel like we want that to be us. Yay! Call mum. Always call mum. Sometimes I don't want to call mum.

Christie Penner Worden (18:22)
Hmm

Yes. Yes.

I, I've had a few experiences with my kids where I've had to,  not just had to, but had the privilege of being grateful that another adult showed up. That I, I could say to one of my kids, best friend's mom, thank you for being there in that moment.

Jo Hobbis (18:53)
Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (18:54)
I've also

had parents say to me, know, when one of the kids had a sleepover and kids got into a bit of naughtiness, as we might say, or they didn't really get into trouble. They just made a choice that none of us as parents would have agreed to. And I had to take, I took the hit because I didn't double back and check what they were gonna watch for the evening. And in retrospect, was it, you know,

Jo Hobbis (19:18)
Mm-hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (19:20)
traumatic for them to watch that movie? No, I just prefer them not to watch that type of movie or that type of scene or something with horror that's so scary. Mostly because I hate horror movies. I know some kids and teenagers love them and even find them funny because they're so unrealistic. That's not me. Well, I'm gonna own it and I'm gonna call the parents and say, just so you know, this is what our girls ended up choosing to watch last night.

Jo Hobbis (19:34)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (19:48)
Had I known, I would have invited them to make a different choice, but I just need you to know that they've watched it. And I'm sorry, I didn't get ahead of it. They told me they were gonna watch one thing and they chose to watch another. You deserve to know and be part of the conversation. But who are the grownups in your life that are going to let you in on the conversation, even though you might not be the one having the conversation with them? Watching my kid on the long walk.

choose to have conversations with other adults and the other kid watching her walk so far ahead of me and how easily she engaged with conversation with others and how actively she chose to wear her headphones when she was walking with me.

Jo Hobbis (20:36)
Hahaha!

Christie Penner Worden (20:38)
There's a rub in that. I had to get to a place where I was so delighted to see her connecting and choosing to build relationship with others because my initial instinct was she's gonna wear those headphones the whole time and no one's gonna get to know her and I'm not gonna be any closer to her and she's gonna have done the whole thing alone. Well, there's two problems with that. One is so what?

Jo Hobbis (20:40)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (21:07)
What was the harm I was afraid of in that? Well, the harm in that was that she wouldn't have the experience I wanted her to have.

And two, what was I missing out on? I had FOMO for what I was missing out on in the conversation she was having. And so there was part of me that wanted to run up and say, what are you guys talking about? Let me in. What do you want to talk? And of course, when I would walk close enough to hear, often they were talking about things like Star Wars or Marvel. Well, I've never watched any of the Star Wars or Marvel movies, which makes me a terrible mom to begin with. I already know that. So how-

Jo Hobbis (21:43)
haha

Christie Penner Worden (21:44)
I

going to at all be able to not only contribute but understand the conversation? Can I let go enough to be like, oh, that conversation wasn't for me. It was actually better for her to have with someone else. Can I let that go? So on that, the push and pull of am I the person that needs to be in the conversation? And if not, why not? And can I get okay with that? And if not, who?

is my kid turning to? And am I in relationship with that person to the point that if they felt that there was something at risk or the conversation was going to a place where they felt they needed to let someone know, would they know they could call me as the adult? As the person walking with my kid, do they know that they can call me? Have I made myself part of the triad of the conversation?

Jo Hobbis (22:29)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (22:39)
in such a way. Have they said to my kid, you know, if you ever tell me something that worries me or causes concern where I think your parents need to know, I need you to know that I would only ever tell them if I think you're in danger or if I think you need their support. But building that circle of trust so that I can let go and not only enable but empower my kids to have difficult conversations with others.

Jo Hobbis (23:06)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (23:07)
It leaves place for a curiosity that may not be satisfied, meaning I'm always going to ask, hey, what were you guys talking about? How did you did you have a good conversation? Did you what you know, I have to leave room for. If I wanted to have the conversation with you, I would have told you, right? That's one of one of the possible outcomes, or is it?

Jo Hobbis (23:25)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (23:29)
we were talking about Star Wars and Marvel and all the, well, you wouldn't understand, mom, because you've never watched those movies. But it was so great because we got into an argument about which tribe should have led and which tribe should have won. And immediately I'm glazed over because I've lost the plot because I never had it. So I have the right to ask the question. And the child, my child also has the right to say, well, you just wouldn't understand.

Jo Hobbis (23:44)
You

Christie Penner Worden (23:59)
I also get to say, why do think I wouldn't understand? Well, because the conversation was about Star Wars. You're correct. I would not understand.

Jo Hobbis (23:59)
Mm.

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (24:08)
And so I think that curiosity that comes out of the times, for example, my eldest had a mentor that she met with every other Wednesday for a whole year. was something that this person had asked to invest in my child because she saw that my child was an introvert, but also a very deep thinker. And she was one of my volunteers in a church that I worked in. And she realized

quite clearly that that child and I are wired very differently from each other. And she understood the personality of my child because that's how she's wired. And so she said, do you think it would be helpful for Ruby to have an adult in her life, for example,  that went through elementary school quite quietly? And I cried, I thought it was such a gift that she would do that.

Was it any of my business what they were talking about? No, but I would always know where they're going, what they're up to, if they're baking, if they're going to paint pottery, if they're going to do Easter eggs, whatever. She would always have something planned to do with my kid and she would pick her up from school and then take her for the evening and drop her off in time for dinner or maybe they would go out for dinner. But that humility  was tried every other Wednesday to release her.

to the care of someone else, knowing that, boy, that's a really good idea. I should go out for a date with my kid every other week. No, that wasn't the point. The point was for her to get to know an adult wired differently than me and who leads differently than me.  And as a result,  that was her Sunday school leader, her church leader for that whole year as well. So it wasn't just every other Wednesday. It was every single Sunday she had contact.

Jo Hobbis (25:30)
Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (25:58)
this person. So I think what the reason I bring all that up is because when you do invite other adults into your kids lives, there is an intentionality that has to be set. Otherwise, the trust in the relationship can't grow to a place of  honesty, of transparency, of going deeper,  and allowing someone to get close to your kids.

Jo Hobbis (26:08)
Yeah.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (26:23)
so that they might go to those precarious places with them, especially if you've lost favor with your kid. And I say that knowing there are times I've lost favor with my kid, I asked the wrong question or I gasped at the wrong time when a kid made a statement about someone or something and I said, that's not true. And I watched their face fall. When I have responded out of my...

Jo Hobbis (26:30)
Mm.

you

Christie Penner Worden (26:52)
gut or out of my emotions, knowing that I've lost some of that trust just in my reaction to something. And how do I build that back? I need a do-over. They need a safe person. Both are true. And we might get it wrong occasionally. I think the flexibility needs to come from us as adults, knowing that our children are still developing, knowing they may change their mind, knowing that what they believe about who they are today,

Jo Hobbis (27:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (27:21)
is likely not the only thing they will ever believe about who they are. It will grow, it will evolve, it might radically change as they find their voice and grow in confidence. So the real hope is that having conversations about identity leads to a confidence in knowing who I was made to be. And it's not just like, I'm proud of myself. It's not that, it's more, I can stand on my two feet.

Jo Hobbis (27:25)
Mm-hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (27:49)
confidently that I was made on purpose for good purpose with a purpose, that God knows how I was made to be, and that by His Spirit, I will become more and more like Jesus with every step I take, and that that direction is always good. Even if it takes us round the wrong side of a second hill, in my estimation, that those extra steps, those extra miles, that extra beauty that we got to witness that day,

might be exactly the right place and the right direction for those kids. Did my kid know that I was not pleased that we left the path? Of course. She knows me to be a rule follower. She knows me to want things to be done the right way at the right time according to the plan. That is my preference. So did she get some sort of delight out of that day because we left the path and I simply had to agree to go along?

Jo Hobbis (28:24)
Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (28:49)
Probably, probably, but the fact that it didn't, it not only didn't bother her to go a different way, there was exploration and a need to really think, okay, what way do we think the path was heading us? And if we look up and see the way the sun is setting, do we need to be going east or west? How will we know whether we're going east or west? And how will we, when do we decide to backtrack?

Jo Hobbis (28:50)
Hahaha.

Christie Penner Worden (29:18)
or not. And the truth is we never did need to backtrack. So we don't necessarily need to go back over where we've been before. We just need, and I would say as the grownup, as a follower of Jesus, to ask God for clarity in where to go next. We don't necessarily need to go back to the way marker we walked away from and start from there.

Jo Hobbis (29:39)
Right.

Christie Penner Worden (29:45)
What we can trust is there are many ways to get to that destination, whatever it is. And I would say if you're going to put a pin in destination, let it be the confidence of your child. Not who they say they are, but the confidence with how they walk out their walk. The confidence in knowing that I get to be who I was made to be and I get to change my mind and I get do-overs and I get to ask for flexibility from the grownups in my life as I learn.

Jo Hobbis (30:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (30:16)
And that affords us as grownups a flexibility to also change our minds. I can change my mind about who I am. For every Gen X little girl, this is something that goes around. You see it in the reels all the time for Gen X women, the peri, the perimenopausal menopausal and post menopausal women that needed to hear that their inner little girl needed to hear you weren't bossy, you were a leader.

Christie Penner Worden (30:45)
The truth is you might have been both. You might have been both and we get to grow through that. And if you silenced yourself because you only ever heard bossy, explore the leadership that's inside of you. Explore the side of you that got stifled. The invitation to grow and change and evolve and rightly name who you are or who you were made to be in Jesus name. You get to change your mind about that too.

Jo Hobbis (31:03)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (31:15)
And as our kids watch us change our mind or change direction or do something we said we'd never do. That happened recently where one of my kids said, you said you'd never do that. And I said, I know. And I was wrong.

I am gonna do it and I am gonna.

Jo Hobbis (31:37)
they do remember

stuff like that as well don't they they always remember

Christie Penner Worden (31:40)
It's obnoxious. ⁓

the tenacious memory for the things we wish would melt away. Versus the things we're like, I'm sure I've told you this 100 times. Why are we still talking about this? Amazingly, let them remind you just as many times as you remind them. Also, if they say you said you'd never do that. What if you got it wrong and you say

Jo Hobbis (31:46)
Yeah

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (32:09)
You're right. I never intended to. And I'm really sorry. My feelings got the best of me. My temper got the best of me. The things I learned when I was young that I haven't been able to shake or relearn, that got the best of me. That can happen to us in theology where there is just, there are some strongholds in our lives that we need to invite the Holy Spirit to break.

Jo Hobbis (32:14)
Hmm.

Christie Penner Worden (32:38)
so that our kids feel safe learning and exploring spaces that we never ever felt safe exploring. They have language for things that we didn't know existed. And so when we let our kids lead, we have the possibility of learning what certain things mean. The number of expressions just this week that I have asked, what does this mean? And then the answer from my kids is,

Jo Hobbis (33:03)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (33:08)
you don't need to know or don't ever say that that doesn't mean you you won't use it right or you sound ridiculous saying that those things might all be true but what they've actually heard from me is a curiosity because I just heard you say something and I don't understand what you're saying can you try again for me because I'm not Gen Z, I'm not Gen Alpha, can you explain it to me?

Jo Hobbis (33:14)
Yeah.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (33:35)
It doesn't matter. It's actually nothing. doesn't really mean anything at all. Super. What did you mean then? What did you mean if it's not an expression that has meaning in and of itself? I think we get to be curious and we get to be dumb. Like just be the way you are. That's right. And you have to be able to measure whether they tell you or not against so what.

Jo Hobbis (33:40)
Hahaha

Yeah and they get to not always tell us the answers as well.

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (34:05)
Is this a life shaping moment? Is this a definable moment, a definitive moment in their life that we really need to pause and dig into? Or can you just maybe Google it later and leave them alone? Right?

Jo Hobbis (34:24)
Yeah, that's usually my option. I do usually

just, I go away and Google what they said. I'm too embarrassed to ask them.

Christie Penner Worden (34:29)
Right, you do it.

Ask Chat GPT like have a conversation with the internet, ask a different parent, go on reels and just put the expression in there and you will see all kinds of people helping you. Your child doesn't need to help you on your journey. Your child will point out things, shine a light

Jo Hobbis (34:33)
Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (34:56)
on things in your journey that you may or may not appreciate having a light shone upon. But it's not their job to lead you on your journey, but they get to help lead their own journey. At every stage of the game, we have to give up some agency to our child to lead us in who they say they are. And getting it wrong implies

Jo Hobbis (35:02)
Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (35:26)
implicitly implies that they could get it wrong. And so how do you know when you're getting it wrong, I think is an important place.  Because I think people just want me to give them an answer right now. And the answer to that question that I would give you is you will know they're getting it right. When your

ability to walk with them still looks like Jesus or they've made a decision and you can measure that against scripture and say, well, we haven't deviated from where God would call us to go. We're allowed to be in a mud puddle. We're allowed to be in a sticky mud puddle. We're allowed to get. They find me. They find me. This is Robert Munch wrote a fabulous storybook called Mud Puddle.

Jo Hobbis (36:11)
You really like sticky mud puddles though, Christie, I do know that about you.

Christie Penner Worden (36:24)
And it's all about how the mud puddle finds the child. And I strongly agree with that theory. But I think as you're measuring, am I getting this wrong? There are a couple of places to go. What does it look like to get it right? And do you need to let go of that? Can I still look and sound and lead like Jesus from where we are along the journey from this dot on the journey? And

Jo Hobbis (36:27)
haha

Christie Penner Worden (36:51)
Thirdly, do I need to invite someone in to pray with me if I think it's going the wrong way? Have I asked Jesus if we're getting it wrong? Is there someone else I can invite into this so that we are interceding on behalf of a child to say, Lord, I don't know if we're headed down a dark path, I don't know if this is the wrong way, or if I'm just afraid to go this way? Inviting Jesus to speak into

Jo Hobbis (36:57)
Hmm.

Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (37:18)
spaces that we're scared to go is so important because perfect love casts out fear. God is love. There is no fear in love. You will have fears about where we're headed based on conversations that your kids start that you don't know how to finish. You don't necessarily need to finish the conversation, but they are inviting you into it. And how blessed are you to have the invitation?

Jo Hobbis (37:41)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (37:47)
The number of parents I've met who've been cut off from the conversation and they don't know how to make their way back in. Pray for those parents who are not invited to have the conversation that they would find a way back in to be invited. In so much as you want an invitation into your children's conversation, most of the time they would really, really like to include you in the conversation and they don't know how.

Jo Hobbis (37:54)
Mm.

Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (38:13)
So be willing to be open, be willing to be wrong, be willing to ask the dumb question, be willing to be told. You can't say that. That's not a good question. You have to find a different way to ask that question or that's inappropriate. We can't talk like that. That's not kind. Being willing to be corrected by this generation of very, very smart kids is an invitation to get it better, to get it right the next time.

or to get invited in sooner by another child.

Jo Hobbis (38:45)
Yeah,

I was going to come to that. What about if you come, you feel like you're coming to the conversation late? So we've talked about other adults in our kids' lives and possibilities for other conversations. How about when you feel like you've been shut out for a while, but you really want to come in? And how do we navigate that?

Christie Penner Worden (39:05)
Yeah.

So I think there's, first of all, it really depends on the temperament of the child and the temperament of the grownup.  Like who shut out who or who shut out who? Okay. I think pants, trousers, we've got it all in this episode. I think.

Jo Hobbis (39:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we'll leave that in. That's okay. That can stay in. I'm not editing that.

Christie Penner Worden (39:35)
I think we can get hurt really easily when we feel that it's a really important conversation and our kids don't necessarily see why it's such a critical conversation or why we feel we need to be a part of it. And so giving enough space when you feel you've got it wrong or you have been shut out of the conversation.

Jo Hobbis (39:54)
Or they've just started before you were ready to start, but having the conversation with someone else.

Christie Penner Worden (39:57)
⁓

I mean, I would say that's 100 % the case, but I can't. I mean, I would say 99 % of the time, they've probably started the conversation earlier,  whether it's been started on the playground at school, or in the health education class at school, or it's come up amongst their peers, or they've gone for a playdate and that that child has two moms or two dads, or you know, like there's or or or

There's all kinds of ways that our desire to have it in a timely fashion and be the first voice into this conversation can get hijacked just by real life. And so I think we need to sit loosely with getting the first voice in this conversation and be more concerned with knowing what we want to contribute to the conversation and knowing what we want to learn from our child through the conversation.

So if the conversation has been started in advance and you're late to the party, or you started the conversation and it went sideways and you know that there's another, there's a need to get back into the conversation, or you just want so desperately to be part of the conversation, I think the onus is on the grownup to circle back at a later date. And that might even be in the very opening chapter of the book where

My youngest didn't want to talk about Jesus anymore because of what I had, the way I had described giving her life up to Jesus and how horrible that sounded, how I had just used the wrong words. We will use the wrong words sometimes, and especially when we don't even understand today's vocabulary. they're using words and phrases and terms that are new. They didn't exist last year, let alone they weren't part of our vernacular.

Jo Hobbis (41:49)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (41:53)
Identity and the way we talk about it didn't really rise in the use  identity as a word didn't rise in use until after the year 2000. It rose exponentially after the year 2000. But I went to school before 2000. We were not talking about identity. It didn't even show up in literature much before 2000. And so they're using a vocabulary that we by virtue of being older than them,

need to learn in order to be part of the conversation intentionally. Learning the vocabulary from our kids might be helpful, but it starts with a question. The way back into a relational conversation isn't by making a statement, because you still have to  be invited back or invited into it. So

what would it look like, I'll ask a question, what would it look like to ask your child for a do-over? If you've made a mistake or you've been shut out, it might look like, hey, I feel like we were having a great conversation that one day and then I said something that, I don't know if it hurt you or if it just frustrated you or it made me sound like I don't understand or that I disagree with you or that, you know.

You don't want to go further because you already know that I'm going to argue with you. I don't want to argue with you. What could I do? What could I do to help make you feel safe starting up that conversation again? Do you feel safe? What would it take to feel safe? Safety, using the word safe is different than don't jump out in front of a car. Safety is part of agency and consent, which are very high values in today's generation of kids and teens and young adults even. So using the word safe,

is extremely important if you feel like you've lost some trust or you've lost some ground. Would you rather have this conversation with someone else? Can I ask, and ⁓ the humility it takes to ask this question, can I ask, do you not wanna have it with me? Have I given you reason to not have it with me?

Jo Hobbis (44:10)
Ouch.

Christie Penner Worden (44:10)
Ouch.

and the answer might be yes. It's been yes on different topics with my kids, with different kids for different, for different topics. But at least you know then there is a fence to mend.

You might have just trampled down one of their boundaries. They might have set a boundary around some something and you said, well, that's not true. Or I don't agree with that. Or I really wish you would stop saying that. Or I don't like that word. Or I don't understand what that means. Our freedom and privilege as the grownup of just out loud responding to something our kids say in that way may actually just plow through one of their boundaries or cause one to be put up.

Jo Hobbis (45:00)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (45:01)
And so what do kids need to feel safe? What do they need to feel like you will come alongside them? And did you get it wrong? And that's why you need to start again. Why do you need a do-over as an adult? And if you're fortunate enough to be asking the questions early enough in the conversation, ask what certain words mean to them or

What does the you can start by saying what does the word identity mean to you? Is it a word that comes up at school? Is it what does it what does it does it bring up feelings? Does it bring up thoughts? Does it bring up nothing? Is it neutral? It's a word that I see bounced around a lot, whether it's on social media or in the flags we fly or in the way we talk about members of the BIPOC community.

I mean, let's talk about disability. Like, identity shapes all of us. We are all shaped by who we say we are, how others experience us. And then there's this transcendent belief for those of us engaging in this conversation with Jesus that

Jo Hobbis (46:06)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (46:18)
There is someone I am meant to be, that I was made to be, that I get to be because of Jesus, and that's where I want my curiosity to land. So even if I don't understand why we're having this particular conversation, can my curiosity press into, I want to know why God made you the way God made you, because you are magnificent. Regardless of whether I agree with the adjectives you choose,

Jo Hobbis (46:21)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (46:49)
It's none of your kid's business necessarily, whether you agree or not. What they get to know over and over is that they were made in the image of the creator of the universe. And that is spectacular beyond comprehension, full stop.

Jo Hobbis (47:04)
I guess that sums up the whole book actually. When I think about the whole book, the message that I hear is that the more we look like Jesus, the more we get to be the me I was made to be. And that that goes for us as well as for our kids. It's true for everyone we meet because we're all made in the image of God. So then, as we sit with all those different aspects of our identity, how do we decide which pieces

Christie Penner Worden (47:19)
Absolutely.

Yes!

Jo Hobbis (47:32)
fit with our identity in Jesus and which bits we get to let go of?

Christie Penner Worden (47:39)
Yeah, I think one of the bravest things we can do as grownups is model the letting go of untruths about who we are.

I've been told I'm lots of things by lots of different people through different seasons of life. And having to have conversations with Jesus about whether those things are true or not. And then even sharing what those conversations have looked like with my kids models how they might work through the things that they don't yet understand about who they are. So there's a bit of a conundrum

culturally with saying the more I look like Jesus, the more I am the me I was made to be or the  conundrum within that is that culture will tell you to you do you be your own unique self. That's your truth. There's all kinds of expressions that say you don't have to be like anybody else and nobody wants you to be like anybody else. You be your own person. So it's really hard and countercultural to say I want you to just

follow Jesus and be exactly like Jesus. That doesn't sound terribly appealing. Here's a linchpin in that thesis. The more you look like Jesus, the more that image bearing nature that is knit together in your person, just by virtue of being human, you are created in the image of God. Jesus is the key that unlocks that glittery strand.

Jo Hobbis (49:02)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (49:27)
and the Holy Spirit is the one who whispers through you and to the world, this is how spectacular God is because this is who I was made to be. And I am convinced that the more I look like Jesus, the more unique, the more interesting, the more loving, the more kind, the weirder I get. The more I look like Jesus,

Jo Hobbis (49:51)
You

Christie Penner Worden (49:54)
I do not feel that I have become a clone. Part of that is because I'm never going to make it. I'm never going to be exactly like Jesus. That is the work of being human. I only get to try every day and try again tomorrow and try again. And every day I get to learn and choose to let that learning curve shape who I am.

Jo Hobbis (49:58)
Mm.

Christie Penner Worden (50:21)
and help me learn who I was made to be. And in so doing, when that brilliant strand lights up within us, we're called to be the light of the world. When that light shows up within us, we get to let go of the thing that hides or shadows that light. There is something holding us back from being fully lit

on fire for Jesus with the flame of the Holy Spirit. There's something that there are lots of things that can hold us back from that. But when we let that light shine, I think it burns up some of the bits that we don't need to carry. And if there are bits that we are having trouble letting go of, they might even be things that people like about us, but we feel just need to be less.

Jo Hobbis (51:03)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (51:17)
or need to be refined by the voice of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we can submit those to God in prayer. We don't actually have to choose what we let go of. There are some things that the Holy Spirit is really clear to say that's gonna need to go. And when it happens day after day, the Holy Spirit might say again, still needs to go. I mean, thank you for trying, but that still needs to go. And it can take years.

But there are some things that you will notice over time have been sloughed off because you have given way to being more like Jesus. You don't necessarily need to know what you need to let go of. You can trust that the Holy Spirit is really good at her job. And you can trust that if it's your job to let go, that instinct that you have by way of embodying the Holy Spirit will lead you so well.

The catch is you do have to trust the Holy Spirit in others as well. The Holy Spirit might not need you to be somebody else's sandpaper.

Jo Hobbis (52:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

Christie Penner Worden (52:27)
The Holy Spirit might need you to be Jesus to someone else. And that's a very different posture to take with someone that you think has a long way to go.

Jo Hobbis (52:31)
Yeah.

Christie Penner Worden (52:39)
Be Jesus to that person. Sit down at the well. Let the edge of your cloak be grabbed to slow you down. Get curious about the people around you that are looking towards you because they see evidence of something that they long for in their life and let it always only ever be Jesus. Let the rest fall away.

Jo Hobbis (53:05)
Thank you, Christie. What an absolute pleasure and a joy it has been to have this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts and stories. And yeah, it's just been great to unpack the whole book. yeah, amazing. Thank you.

Christie Penner Worden (53:25)
Thank you for

this conversation because I would just want each listener or viewer to know that we did this so that you might feel brave. Like if we go first and have this conversation, go bravely, go bravely. And if you get it wrong, new mercies every morning, we serve a God of do-overs. We're all learning and we are all becoming.

Your identity is not yet finished any more than the kid that you love. Continue to grow because the more you look like Jesus, I promise the more you get to be fully and more who you were made to be.

Jo Hobbis (54:08)
Amen.